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darnall42
Newbie
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 18:52:29
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| havent had a vhs recorder in my living room for about 3 years,but i gladly get out the thing for my loose cannon tapes,although i copy them onto blank dvd's there is still something great about video tapes |
its a reeves and mortimer quality product |
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Richard H
Newbie
7 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 20:02:32
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What I find amazing about this, and one of the reasons whay I tend to steer clear of Doctor Who fandom in general, is that for having an opinion, wanting to see something happen, or having an opinion one tends to end up being insulted and attacked in the most childish and imature of ways.
Just because I don't want to own a VCR does not make me petulant!!!!
One of the reasons I asked about DVD distribution is that I have found it VERY dificult in the past to get replies from dub sites. Infact I really struggled like mad to get the tapes that I did manage to get. Digital distribution negates the need for relying on "good will".
Can I ask a mod that before this thread turns into an out and out slanging match or even libalous that it be locked?
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Fatso the wombat
Moderator
United Kingdom
2911 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 20:11:56
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The way I see it is this; you have an opinion as to how recons should be distributed that is not shared by the makers of such recons. They have their method of distribution and have explained the whys and wherefores of the situation. Essentially, it's VHS or nowt. I appreciate that you do not agree with this, but that's the way they're run, and they're not going to change.
If you have had problems with dub sites, maybe it's worth contacting the recon makers and mentioning this. You do find, as with every sphere, that some people are better than others. Also, bear in mind that people do have lives to lead and may have many other things on their plates at certain times. |
Regards,
Ash Stewart
Hannah Murray must be the companion in Dr Who Season 5! - join the FaceBook group NOW!!!
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Russ
Administrator
United Kingdom
2235 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 20:26:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
What I find amazing about this, and one of the reasons whay I tend to steer clear of Doctor Who fandom in general, is that for having an opinion, wanting to see something happen, or having an opinion one tends to end up being insulted and attacked in the most childish and imature of ways.
Just because I don't want to own a VCR does not make me petulant!!!!
One of the reasons I asked about DVD distribution is that I have found it VERY dificult in the past to get replies from dub sites. Infact I really struggled like mad to get the tapes that I did manage to get. Digital distribution negates the need for relying on "good will".
Can I ask a mod that before this thread turns into an out and out slanging match or even libalous that it be locked?
The distribution system is now much improved and monitored so responses from dubsites are now much better.
I don't think anyone will disagree a digital system would be better for the recipients and easier for us, but the fact still remains it increases the risk and we are not prepared to do it for that reason, simple as that and no matter how much you argue that a digital system would be better it doesn't negate that risk so it won't happen
Undoubtedly VHS is outdated and i imagine most people (as darnell42 below) just copy them straight onto DVD anyway, I only have a VHS machine in my bedroom now and that is only usually used for copying stuff onto DVD anyway and gets little use, most people are the same (apart from my mum who doesn't like dvd!!)
I don't think its your refusal to buy a VHS or even your disagreement with our policy of VHS that is causing people to call you petulant but the refusal to accept that it is our risk and therefore our choice and basically saying its our fault you cannot watch recons, you can watch them but choose not to as it causes you the inconvienience of having a VHS, at the end of the day thats your choice but it is you not respecting our decision that is the problem |
Has Doctor Who merchandise gone too far?
NEW Dalek condoms - specially produced so at the crucial moment they say "Halt, or you will be impregnated" |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 11:01:48
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<I don't think its your refusal to buy a VHS or even your disagreement with our policy of VHS that is causing people to call you petulant but the refusal to accept that it is our risk and therefore our choice and basically saying its our fault you cannot watch recons, you can watch them but choose not to as it causes you the inconvienience of having a VHS, at the end of the day thats your choice but it is you not respecting our decision that is the problem>
Precisely! Well said, Russ! |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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billy1
Newbie
5 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 12:58:34
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quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel
They are not available on DVD because it would make them too easy and cheap to duplicate, mass produce, and ship. The idea is that the BBC will turn a blind eye to VHS recons as they do not pose any financial threat to the studio or show, but DVD duplication might.
Seeing the amount of potential revenue the BBC is losing through a site like Mininova makes it laughable to suggest that they'd be bothered by Recons being distributed digitally. |
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Russ
Administrator
United Kingdom
2235 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 13:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel
They are not available on DVD because it would make them too easy and cheap to duplicate, mass produce, and ship. The idea is that the BBC will turn a blind eye to VHS recons as they do not pose any financial threat to the studio or show, but DVD duplication might.
Seeing the amount of potential revenue the BBC is losing through a site like Mininova makes it laughable to suggest that they'd be bothered by Recons being distributed digitally.
Really? Well they were bothered about a guy who had recons on his YouTube channel and closed him down, there was also a guy who produced novels (for free) of the new series stuff who had the same thing happen to him. I have no idea why the beeb don't crack down on stuff like mininova (though Demonid was shut down recently) but they certainly have time to stop he little guy |
Has Doctor Who merchandise gone too far?
NEW Dalek condoms - specially produced so at the crucial moment they say "Halt, or you will be impregnated" |
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billy1
Newbie
5 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 13:25:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ
quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel
They are not available on DVD because it would make them too easy and cheap to duplicate, mass produce, and ship. The idea is that the BBC will turn a blind eye to VHS recons as they do not pose any financial threat to the studio or show, but DVD duplication might.
Seeing the amount of potential revenue the BBC is losing through a site like Mininova makes it laughable to suggest that they'd be bothered by Recons being distributed digitally.
Really? Well they were bothered about a guy who had recons on his YouTube channel and closed him down, there was also a guy who produced novels (for free) of the new series stuff who had the same thing happen to him. I have no idea why the beeb don't crack down on stuff like mininova (though Demonid was shut down recently) but they certainly have time to stop he little guy
Probably because the new series is still running and the Recons look (relatively) bloody awful and just make Dr Who look bad. |
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Adam
Legendary Time Traveller
United Kingdom
5127 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 13:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ
quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel
They are not available on DVD because it would make them too easy and cheap to duplicate, mass produce, and ship. The idea is that the BBC will turn a blind eye to VHS recons as they do not pose any financial threat to the studio or show, but DVD duplication might.
Seeing the amount of potential revenue the BBC is losing through a site like Mininova makes it laughable to suggest that they'd be bothered by Recons being distributed digitally.
Really? Well they were bothered about a guy who had recons on his YouTube channel and closed him down, there was also a guy who produced novels (for free) of the new series stuff who had the same thing happen to him. I have no idea why the beeb don't crack down on stuff like mininova (though Demonid was shut down recently) but they certainly have time to stop he little guy
That's a different kettle of fish though Russ. Bitorrent is very hard to clamp down on as the anti piracy companies that work for or on behalf of the over a Trillion dollars media industry have found out. Something like youtube is easy enough, just tell youtube and they will take it down. If the BBC could stop bitorrent or such the like they would but they certainly wouldn't be the first in line.
Its kind of funny that every time one of these MPAA etc people claim a victory by shutting down a popular sharing site, another one opens that's just as good!
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http://satanslapdog.forumco.com/default.asp
The home of fun :-) |
Edited by - Adam on 09 Apr 2008 13:32:28 |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 13:44:54
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It's a lot more complicated than that. In the US, the copywrite and trademark regulations are such that officially, you don't get to pick and choose who you go after. (I'm assuming the regulations are similarly complex in Britain). You have to go after everyone regardless of size who's infringing on your copywrite that you're aware. If you don't, the courts can say you're allowing some people to infringe which is enough to invalidate your copywrite.
Now realistically, companies don't have the money to go after everyone who infringes. So the companies do have to make judgment calls who they decide to go after, but it can't be obvious that you're specifically ignoring some infringements. You can't just noticeably ignore the little guy or the guy the company thinks is doing crappy knock-offs.
If the recons are only on VHS, even if the BBC knows about them, they can claim they were low-profile and archaeic enough in format that they weren't aware of them. If their distributed in DVD, it becomes harder for the BBC to deny knowledge.
If someone happens to do a high profile article about the recons that maybe gets sonme national publicity, then the BBC would have no choice but to shut them down because they couldn't feign ignorance.
Basically, it's a very complex issue. I think we can reasonably assume at this point the BBC knows about the recons. I think we can also reasonably assume that for the time being, they aren't going to do anything about them (always subject to change without notice). However, anything that upsets the delicate balance that currently allows the BBC to deny knowledge, like making them more visible by distributing them on DVD, greatly increases the risk they'll have to take action whether they want to or not.
So it comes down to the LC team's discretion. They've decided it's not worth the risk to distribute on DVD. They have valid reasons for making this decision. I agree with this decision. Even if you don't though, you have to respect that it's the LC crew's call to make. |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 13:48:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam
quote:
Originally posted by Russ
quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel
They are not available on DVD because it would make them too easy and cheap to duplicate, mass produce, and ship. The idea is that the BBC will turn a blind eye to VHS recons as they do not pose any financial threat to the studio or show, but DVD duplication might.
Seeing the amount of potential revenue the BBC is losing through a site like Mininova makes it laughable to suggest that they'd be bothered by Recons being distributed digitally.
Really? Well they were bothered about a guy who had recons on his YouTube channel and closed him down, there was also a guy who produced novels (for free) of the new series stuff who had the same thing happen to him. I have no idea why the beeb don't crack down on stuff like mininova (though Demonid was shut down recently) but they certainly have time to stop he little guy
That's a different kettle of fish though Russ. Bitorrent is very hard to clamp down on as the anti piracy companies that work for or on behalf of the over a Trillion dollars media industry have found out. Something like youtube is easy enough, just tell youtube and they will take it down. If the BBC could stop bitorrent or such the like they would but they certainly wouldn't be the first in line.
Its kind of funny that every time one of these MPAA etc people claim a victory by shutting down a popular sharing site, another one opens that's just as good!
Adam's right. The powers that be are actively going after Bittorrent folks. In the last six months, several of the major ones have been shut down that used to be available in the US, Demonoid included. Overall, it's a pyrhic victory for the movie industries, because, as Adam points out, for every site they shut down, half a dozen more show up.
On the other hand, I sure wouldn't want to be one of the little guys running a bittorrent site that the movie moguls decide to go after. |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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billy1
Newbie
5 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 13:51:02
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quote:
Originally posted by toxicspurge
It's a lot more complicated than that. In the US, the copywrite and trademark regulations are such that officially, you don't get to pick and choose who you go after. (I'm assuming the regulations are similarly complex in Britain). You have to go after everyone regardless of size who's infringing on your copywrite that you're aware. If you don't, the courts can say you're allowing some people to infringe which is enough to invalidate your copywrite.
Now realistically, companies don't have the money to go after everyone who infringes. So the companies do have to make judgment calls who they decide to go after, but it can't be obvious that you're specifically ignoring some infringements. You can't just noticeably ignore the little guy or the guy the company thinks is doing crappy knock-offs.
If the recons are only on VHS, even if the BBC knows about them, they can claim they were low-profile and archaeic enough in format that they weren't aware of them. If their distributed in DVD, it becomes harder for the BBC to deny knowledge.
If someone happens to do a high profile article about the recons that maybe gets sonme national publicity, then the BBC would have no choice but to shut them down because they couldn't feign ignorance.
Basically, it's a very complex issue. I think we can reasonably assume at this point the BBC knows about the recons. I think we can also reasonably assume that for the time being, they aren't going to do anything about them (always subject to change without notice). However, anything that upsets the delicate balance that currently allows the BBC to deny knowledge, like making them more visible by distributing them on DVD, greatly increases the risk they'll have to take action whether they want to or not.
So it comes down to the LC team's discretion. They've decided it's not worth the risk to distribute on DVD. They have valid reasons for making this decision. I agree with this decision. Even if you don't though, you have to respect that it's the LC crew's call to make.
That's the best explanation I've heard. Understood. |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 13:56:07
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| Glad I could help. Love the avatar, by the way. I wouldn't let the Yancy Street Irregulars find out about it, though. |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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Adam
Legendary Time Traveller
United Kingdom
5127 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 21:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by toxicspurge
quote:
Originally posted by Adam
quote:
Originally posted by Russ
quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel
They are not available on DVD because it would make them too easy and cheap to duplicate, mass produce, and ship. The idea is that the BBC will turn a blind eye to VHS recons as they do not pose any financial threat to the studio or show, but DVD duplication might.
Seeing the amount of potential revenue the BBC is losing through a site like Mininova makes it laughable to suggest that they'd be bothered by Recons being distributed digitally.
Really? Well they were bothered about a guy who had recons on his YouTube channel and closed him down, there was also a guy who produced novels (for free) of the new series stuff who had the same thing happen to him. I have no idea why the beeb don't crack down on stuff like mininova (though Demonid was shut down recently) but they certainly have time to stop he little guy
That's a different kettle of fish though Russ. Bitorrent is very hard to clamp down on as the anti piracy companies that work for or on behalf of the over a Trillion dollars media industry have found out. Something like youtube is easy enough, just tell youtube and they will take it down. If the BBC could stop bitorrent or such the like they would but they certainly wouldn't be the first in line.
Its kind of funny that every time one of these MPAA etc people claim a victory by shutting down a popular sharing site, another one opens that's just as good!
Adam's right. The powers that be are actively going after Bittorrent folks. In the last six months, several of the major ones have been shut down that used to be available in the US, Demonoid included. Overall, it's a pyrhic victory for the movie industries, because, as Adam points out, for every site they shut down, half a dozen more show up.
On the other hand, I sure wouldn't want to be one of the little guys running a bittorrent site that the movie moguls decide to go after.
You have to bear in mind a lot of these sites are run in countries where they aren't against the law, which makes it so difficult to do anything. If you want to shut down bitorrent you have to go after the big fish, there is no point going after the average user , you could never prosecute enough people. It takes months of investigation to get a case. Its like the situation with cannabis, there is no point going after cannabis users you need the people who grow it. |
http://satanslapdog.forumco.com/default.asp
The home of fun :-) |
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Russ
Administrator
United Kingdom
2235 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 21:32:18
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quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by Russ
quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel
They are not available on DVD because it would make them too easy and cheap to duplicate, mass produce, and ship. The idea is that the BBC will turn a blind eye to VHS recons as they do not pose any financial threat to the studio or show, but DVD duplication might.
Seeing the amount of potential revenue the BBC is losing through a site like Mininova makes it laughable to suggest that they'd be bothered by Recons being distributed digitally.
Really? Well they were bothered about a guy who had recons on his YouTube channel and closed him down, there was also a guy who produced novels (for free) of the new series stuff who had the same thing happen to him. I have no idea why the beeb don't crack down on stuff like mininova (though Demonid was shut down recently) but they certainly have time to stop he little guy
Probably because the new series is still running and the Recons look (relatively) bloody awful and just make Dr Who look bad.
Well you are entitled to your opinion of course but they look exactly the same (VHS quality aside) as those on official releases of Tenth Planet, Ice Warriors and The Beginning, however I agree they are much more likely to clamp down on anything whilst the new series is running |
Has Doctor Who merchandise gone too far?
NEW Dalek condoms - specially produced so at the crucial moment they say "Halt, or you will be impregnated" |
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Russ
Administrator
United Kingdom
2235 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 21:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by toxicspurge
It's a lot more complicated than that. In the US, the copywrite and trademark regulations are such that officially, you don't get to pick and choose who you go after. (I'm assuming the regulations are similarly complex in Britain). You have to go after everyone regardless of size who's infringing on your copywrite that you're aware. If you don't, the courts can say you're allowing some people to infringe which is enough to invalidate your copywrite.
Now realistically, companies don't have the money to go after everyone who infringes. So the companies do have to make judgment calls who they decide to go after, but it can't be obvious that you're specifically ignoring some infringements. You can't just noticeably ignore the little guy or the guy the company thinks is doing crappy knock-offs.
If the recons are only on VHS, even if the BBC knows about them, they can claim they were low-profile and archaeic enough in format that they weren't aware of them. If their distributed in DVD, it becomes harder for the BBC to deny knowledge.
If someone happens to do a high profile article about the recons that maybe gets sonme national publicity, then the BBC would have no choice but to shut them down because they couldn't feign ignorance.
Basically, it's a very complex issue. I think we can reasonably assume at this point the BBC knows about the recons. I think we can also reasonably assume that for the time being, they aren't going to do anything about them (always subject to change without notice). However, anything that upsets the delicate balance that currently allows the BBC to deny knowledge, like making them more visible by distributing them on DVD, greatly increases the risk they'll have to take action whether they want to or not.
So it comes down to the LC team's discretion. They've decided it's not worth the risk to distribute on DVD. They have valid reasons for making this decision. I agree with this decision. Even if you don't though, you have to respect that it's the LC crew's call to make.
That's the best explanation I've heard. Understood.
agreed |
Has Doctor Who merchandise gone too far?
NEW Dalek condoms - specially produced so at the crucial moment they say "Halt, or you will be impregnated" |
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Tim L
Junior Time Traveller
43 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2008 : 22:28:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Russ
quote:
Originally posted by billy1
quote:
Originally posted by toxicspurge
It's a lot more complicated than that. In the US, the copywrite and trademark regulations are such that officially, you don't get to pick and choose who you go after. (I'm assuming the regulations are similarly complex in Britain). You have to go after everyone regardless of size who's infringing on your copywrite that you're aware. If you don't, the courts can say you're allowing some people to infringe which is enough to invalidate your copywrite.
Now realistically, companies don't have the money to go after everyone who infringes. So the companies do have to make judgment calls who they decide to go after, but it can't be obvious that you're specifically ignoring some infringements. You can't just noticeably ignore the little guy or the guy the company thinks is doing crappy knock-offs.
If the recons are only on VHS, even if the BBC knows about them, they can claim they were low-profile and archaeic enough in format that they weren't aware of them. If their distributed in DVD, it becomes harder for the BBC to deny knowledge.
If someone happens to do a high profile article about the recons that maybe gets sonme national publicity, then the BBC would have no choice but to shut them down because they couldn't feign ignorance.
Basically, it's a very complex issue. I think we can reasonably assume at this point the BBC knows about the recons. I think we can also reasonably assume that for the time being, they aren't going to do anything about them (always subject to change without notice). However, anything that upsets the delicate balance that currently allows the BBC to deny knowledge, like making them more visible by distributing them on DVD, greatly increases the risk they'll have to take action whether they want to or not.
So it comes down to the LC team's discretion. They've decided it's not worth the risk to distribute on DVD. They have valid reasons for making this decision. I agree with this decision. Even if you don't though, you have to respect that it's the LC crew's call to make.
That's the best explanation I've heard. Understood.
agreed
Shame it's not true though. ;)
Trademarks can be lost in this way, but copyright cannot. Content owners absolutely *can* pick and choose who to go after. What influences their targets is usually the old balance of money spent vs revenue lost, although in the case of the BBC and recons I can only guess. Maybe they don't think it's worth the effort. Maybe they think it will generate bad publicity. Maybe they feel their legal money is better spent pruning the internet instead of picking over the bones of VHS.
If I were in LC's shoes I'd do exactly the same. While it would be hard for the BBC to get recons removed from BT sites (and impossible to remove them from usenet), it isn't like LC are a secret band of elusive ninjas. Even if the BBC struggle finding anything online to prosecute them with, their current tape distribution network will have left enough evidence to damn them with.
And just to stretch the point even further, even if the BBC did one day officially announce that it would allow recons to be served up online with no fear of prosecution, there's no guarantee that any of the owners of the other photos and clips used in some of the recons would do the same. |
Edited by - Tim L on 09 Apr 2008 22:29:42 |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 12:32:40
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| Tim, are you talking about the US, Britain or both? |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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Russ
Administrator
United Kingdom
2235 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 13:38:55
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quote:
there's no guarantee that any of the owners of the other photos and clips used in some of the recons would do the same.
No, but from memory the only ones it would be impossible to do without using non BBC copyrighted stuff are Massacre, DMP and Myth Makers and even then you could do it, just with the wrong actors :-) all other non BBC stuff could be replaced, the vast majority of photos used are BBC copyright anyway |
Has Doctor Who merchandise gone too far?
NEW Dalek condoms - specially produced so at the crucial moment they say "Halt, or you will be impregnated" |
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Tim L
Junior Time Traveller
43 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 13:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by toxicspurge
Tim, are you talking about the US, Britain or both?
Both, in relation to copyright. I'm not sure about UK trademark law, but that's besides the point.
The notion that copyrighted works can lose their copyright if not defended is a persistent myth, it seems. |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 13:49:28
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| Thanks Tim. |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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Tim L
Junior Time Traveller
43 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2008 : 14:13:34
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| No worries - just being a one-man Snopes. ;) |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2008 : 11:48:32
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| All insights are appreciated! |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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darnall42
Newbie
United Kingdom
10 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2008 : 17:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim L
quote:
Originally posted by toxicspurge
Tim, are you talking about the US, Britain or both?
Both, in relation to copyright. I'm not sure about UK trademark law, but that's besides the point.
The notion that copyrighted works can lose their copyright if not defended is a persistent myth, it seems.
well there is a load of public domain stuff,lots of film and tv programes from the fifties and sixties are public domain because the producers of the programes did'nt take out copyright,and there are plaenty of sites that you can download them from legally(i downloaded all the ronald howard sherlock holmes tv episodes not long back)but there is no chance that any doctor who will be public domain(allthough the quatermass and the pit omnibus version is public domain) |
its a reeves and mortimer quality product |
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Possably an old question but I'll ask anyway.
