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Richard H
Newbie
7 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 19:42:52
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Hi everyone,
I'm new here but not new to the recons. I collected then way back in the day when they were first made available all those years ago from LC, JV and others now long gone.
As Time progressed the LC ones were always the best of the lot, pushing what was capable and adding many additional features.. ok enough sucking up, heres my question)
Why arn't the recons available for direct download or on DVD???
Don't shoot me, I've read some of the earlier threads on this but here my point of view. I don't have a VCR, I can't watch the recons that I do own from years ago anymore and I can't get the new ones and the re-visited ones either. The only way that I could see these is by downloading them.
The amount of work that goes into making these is awe inspiring, the quality of each one improved by every release and the new scans of the telesnaps ane infinatly better. Why ruin the quality of these recons by making them availabe on an out dated, no longer sold and poor quality format. I was lucky enough to be given a copy of The Underwater Menace on disk which I was told was DVD quality and it was... It was so watchable because of the sharpnes and quality of the visuals and I can see myself watching many more if they are in this format and of this quality.
It's been said that the BBC may step in and shut the site down, but, if they were gonna do something like this I think that they would have done it a long time ago, and at the end of the day the distribution of these is no more dificult by DVD than it is by VHS.
By putting these out on VHS the team is robbing people of the full experience of the superb quality that the recons are now demonstrating and limiting who can watch them as a lot of people now don't own VCR's.
So what can of worms have I opened here now i wonder???
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Another Ian
Seasoned Time Traveller
United Kingdom
615 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 20:18:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
and at the end of the day the distribution of these is no more dificult by DVD than it is by VHS.
That's the problem - distribution would be way too easy on DVD. |
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spikeandjezebel
Time Traveller
USA
287 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 20:46:43
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| They are not available on DVD because it would make them too easy and cheap to duplicate, mass produce, and ship. The idea is that the BBC will turn a blind eye to VHS recons as they do not pose any financial threat to the studio or show, but DVD duplication might. |
My dear, nobody could be as stupid as he seems. |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 21:48:55
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| Yup. |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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Russ
Administrator
United Kingdom
2235 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 01:56:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
Hi everyone,
I'm new here but not new to the recons. I collected then way back in the day when they were first made available all those years ago from LC, JV and others now long gone.
As Time progressed the LC ones were always the best of the lot, pushing what was capable and adding many additional features.. ok enough sucking up, heres my question)
Why arn't the recons available for direct download or on DVD???
Don't shoot me, I've read some of the earlier threads on this but here my point of view. I don't have a VCR, I can't watch the recons that I do own from years ago anymore and I can't get the new ones and the re-visited ones either. The only way that I could see these is by downloading them.
The amount of work that goes into making these is awe inspiring, the quality of each one improved by every release and the new scans of the telesnaps ane infinatly better. Why ruin the quality of these recons by making them availabe on an out dated, no longer sold and poor quality format. I was lucky enough to be given a copy of The Underwater Menace on disk which I was told was DVD quality and it was... It was so watchable because of the sharpnes and quality of the visuals and I can see myself watching many more if they are in this format and of this quality.
It's been said that the BBC may step in and shut the site down, but, if they were gonna do something like this I think that they would have done it a long time ago, and at the end of the day the distribution of these is no more dificult by DVD than it is by VHS.
By putting these out on VHS the team is robbing people of the full experience of the superb quality that the recons are now demonstrating and limiting who can watch them as a lot of people now don't own VCR's.
So what can of worms have I opened here now i wonder???
Hi Richard
The reason they are not available on DVD is simply we understand from a good source that the BBC legal department would not be interested in anything distributed on VHS but would be much more likely to take action against digitally distributed material.
You say you would be happier to watch more recons if they were distributed on DVD, well i'm afraid if they were there wouldn't be more recons as we would have much more chance of getting shut down, it is VHS or nothing
The BBC do take action on occasion, if you look through this very website for a poster name silver smurfer you will see a thread in which he proudly proclaims he will distribute his recons via YouTube - he is now shut down, the risk of this is far greater now than ever before
It is our wish to stay a fan project and not be percieved by the BBC as a threat to their income or copyright, if you want to watch them, buy a video recorder, they are still available as are VHS tapes, if you aren't prepared to do that, don't watch them, i'm afraid they will remain the only options, i'm certainly not prepared to have the BBC lawyers suing me to enhance your viewing experience!!
Believe me it would make our life far far easier if we did make stuff available for download, VHS includes loads of fannying about making copies and sorting requests, but we regard it as a neccessary evil
Incidentally if you watch a recent recon production on VHS the quality is similar to a shop bought VHS, nothing like the mushy 10th gen stuff of the past, certainly not DVD standard but quite acceptable |
Has Doctor Who merchandise gone too far?
NEW Dalek condoms - specially produced so at the crucial moment they say "Halt, or you will be impregnated" |
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Richard H
Newbie
7 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 02:36:30
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| I appreciate what ha sbeen said and the legal minefield that you tread, but as someone who doesn't own a VCR I'm rather stuffed coz I can't watch them, so it doesn't matter how good the quality is on VHS I can't watch it. |
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dhandley
Member
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 12:34:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
I appreciate what ha sbeen said and the legal minefield that you tread, but as someone who doesn't own a VCR I'm rather stuffed coz I can't watch them, so it doesn't matter how good the quality is on VHS I can't watch it.
You can watch it, but you'll have to get yourself a VHS player! Many people such as yourself are ditching their old machines at the moment, so you can get a second hand one for next to nothing. |
Derek |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 13:19:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
I appreciate what ha sbeen said and the legal minefield that you tread, but as someone who doesn't own a VCR I'm rather stuffed coz I can't watch them, so it doesn't matter how good the quality is on VHS I can't watch it.
You know you can buy a VHS player for about the cost of postage for a few tapes anyway! I just ran a quick search on ebay. With shipping, you can buy a used VHS player for what would translate to about 5 lbs total.
Really the argument that you don't have a VHS player doesn't carry any weight. If you can't afford one, then you can't afford the blank tapes to get the recons anyway, so it's a moot point. |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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Richard H
Newbie
7 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 15:48:30
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Nothing like I can't afford a VCR, I haven't had a VCR for over 5 years now and I have no intention in going backwards in terms of technology.
As for them available digitally, no doubt they will be available on mininova or some such soon anyway I'm sorry to say. |
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The Black Guardian
Time Traveller
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 18:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
Nothing like I can't afford a VCR, I haven't had a VCR for over 5 years now and I have no intention in going backwards in terms of technology.
As for them available digitally, no doubt they will be available on mininova or some such soon anyway I'm sorry to say.
Why not buy a DVD recorder that can also play VHS? It can transfer VHS to DVD easily enough. |
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Richard H
Newbie
7 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 10:22:27
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| Because I alrady have 2 DVD Players/recorders. 3 if you count my PC |
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HornOrSilk
Legendary Time Traveller
1226 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 10:31:44
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| I really think the Restoration Team should have done something with the BBC to work out a way to accept the recons, and even use them as extras on Hartnell and Troughton DVDS (because, mind you, while some of the extras are good, recon extras would be much much much better). |
I am Horn but they think I am Silk! |
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Pip
Time Traveller
488 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 16:11:06
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Disregarding the potential problem of people complaining about wasted bitrate on recons (especially in the US where a second DVD would ramp up the price), the problem is that when Loose Cannon release recons, they don't have to pay anyone for the materials used (such as photos).
Were they officially released by the BBC, then everything would have to be paid for - so if they got a photo of a guest star from an episode of The Avengers (for example), the rights would have to be cleared with Studio Canal (or whoever it is) to use that photo - and depending on what they charge, it could cost anything - from a hundred pounds to thousands of pounds for just one photo. Multiply it by then umber of photos used and it would cost far more than could ever be justifable. You could just make a recon using the tele-snaps, but then it would be a harder sell to the general public who buys it - not the mention the numberous Who fans who don'tcare for recons.
At the same time you have to pay the performers who were in the story - so for Daleks Master Plan you'd have to pay for everyone - from Kevin Stoney down to the performers in The Feast of Steven - this would severely ramp up the costs! It's telling that in the Marco Polo recon, aside from the regulars IIRC the only characters to appear in it were Marco Polo, Tegana, Ping-Cho and Kublai Khan - meaning that all the smaller characters involved in the stories don't feature, and don't have to be paid. |
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HornOrSilk
Legendary Time Traveller
1226 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 17:16:36
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| Except, I would point out -- when making "specials" for DVDS, money is being used too. How much difference in cost would there be? |
I am Horn but they think I am Silk! |
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dhandley
Member
United Kingdom
76 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 18:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by HornOrSilk
Except, I would point out -- when making "specials" for DVDS, money is being used too. How much difference in cost would there be?
The money side of it isn't the issue for the BBC/2|E not releasing recons on DVDs.
There was a recon planned for a DVD release, but then it was scrapped after the success of the Invasion animation, 2E felt that people wouldn't be happy with more traditional recons after this. |
Derek |
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Richard H
Newbie
7 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 21:20:31
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| Sorry to be so negative here but basically, without me haveing to go and buy an out dated piece of equipment that apart from watching theres recons I've no use for at all AND without condoning the somewat dubious use of torrent sites I actually have no way of seeing all the excellent work being put in to these new/revamped recons???? |
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Paul Martin
Moderator
United Kingdom
641 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 21:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by dhandley
The money side of it isn't the issue for the BBC/2|E not releasing recons on DVDs.
There was a recon planned for a DVD release, but then it was scrapped after the success of the Invasion animation, 2E felt that people wouldn't be happy with more traditional recons after this.
So we wont be getting any more recons, because the animations we wont be getting any more of were so popular?
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"The thing it does most efficiently is exterminate human beings. It destroys them, without mercy, without conscience. It destroys them. Utterly. Completely." |
Edited by - Paul Martin on 06 Apr 2008 21:26:55 |
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TimM
Newbie
8 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 21:34:16
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There are loads of average but acceptable vhs vcr machines in charity shops ( often for only a fiver ) because so many are being got rid of.
Hopefully £5 or so is affordable for you.
And then via a scart your vhs's can be transferred to dvd-r for personal use. |
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Russ
Administrator
United Kingdom
2235 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 21:37:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
Nothing like I can't afford a VCR, I haven't had a VCR for over 5 years now and I have no intention in going backwards in terms of technology.
As for them available digitally, no doubt they will be available on mininova or some such soon anyway I'm sorry to say.
They will, there is very little that doesn't make it onto mininova but by supporting this you will increase the chance of no more recons, also that rather negates your point about quality as what you will get on mininova is (at very best) an mpeg compressed version at 4.5 gig, more likely 250mb per episode divx or something, the source material isn't that crash hot anyway so to convert back to MPEG then compress does it no favours, i found one copy of Galaxy 4 which someone had chopped the captions off! made no sense
I do sympathise, but i'm afraid our hands are tied |
Has Doctor Who merchandise gone too far?
NEW Dalek condoms - specially produced so at the crucial moment they say "Halt, or you will be impregnated" |
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HornOrSilk
Legendary Time Traveller
1226 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 22:15:27
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quote:
So we wont be getting any more recons, because the animations we wont be getting any more of were so popular?
Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either. Nor does it make sense that if free recons were put on as extras, people wouldn't be interested in animated versions of the stories if such animations were made. |
I am Horn but they think I am Silk! |
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Russ
Administrator
United Kingdom
2235 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2008 : 22:42:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Pip
Disregarding the potential problem of people complaining about wasted bitrate on recons (especially in the US where a second DVD would ramp up the price), the problem is that when Loose Cannon release recons, they don't have to pay anyone for the materials used (such as photos).
Were they officially released by the BBC, then everything would have to be paid for - so if they got a photo of a guest star from an episode of The Avengers (for example), the rights would have to be cleared with Studio Canal (or whoever it is) to use that photo - and depending on what they charge, it could cost anything - from a hundred pounds to thousands of pounds for just one photo. Multiply it by then umber of photos used and it would cost far more than could ever be justifable. You could just make a recon using the tele-snaps, but then it would be a harder sell to the general public who buys it - not the mention the numberous Who fans who don'tcare for recons.
At the same time you have to pay the performers who were in the story - so for Daleks Master Plan you'd have to pay for everyone - from Kevin Stoney down to the performers in The Feast of Steven - this would severely ramp up the costs! It's telling that in the Marco Polo recon, aside from the regulars IIRC the only characters to appear in it were Marco Polo, Tegana, Ping-Cho and Kublai Khan - meaning that all the smaller characters involved in the stories don't feature, and don't have to be paid.
Well there are different kinds of recons, I doubt very much you could do a recon of Masterplan with easily clearable stuff, some of the performers were very obscure and had to be obtained from rare films etc which would have to be paid for, Massacre and Myth Makers would probably be the same, but stories with telesnaps and others with small casts etc which could have material obtained from BBC productions such as Reign of Terror, Mission to the Unknown or Galaxy 4 would be viable to do as recons.
As you rightly say there are rights to pay for to actors etc but that is no different to any other release, be it Doctor Who, Steptoe and Son or Balamory.
My opinion is the sale of recons would make money for 2E if released either via download (and i have no idea if that comes within 2E's remit to allow downloads) or by mail order/specialist shops, I have no idea of the actual costs involved in clearing items but i do have a good idea of the sales of some of the Doctor Who releases (both VHS and DVD) and of other items released by 2E and other companies and some recons have had more official copies distributed than the lower selling VHS releases, and that is without any sort of advertising whatsoever, just via the LC site, It would cost no more to clear a recon than, say, Invasion of Time or The Omega Factor so if the production costs and sales figure are similar to other titles no reason why they couldn't be released
What would cost more is the work put into making the recons, if i was to charge my normal hourly working rate for the hours i put into Space Pirates it would probably have to sell more than the Office! However if someone was to offer me even £50 for my work on it its £50 more than I got anyway, the same applies to the other guys, most of the DVD extras rely on people doing the work for less than the correct rate anyway, so that isn't really an issue
There are only two things that could be used to judge the potential size of the market, the Audiobooks release of Power and distribution of unofficial recons, I have no idea of the numbers of sales Power has had but it has often been said they were very good, However a lot of people (myself included) didn't buy it cos it was crap! (thats not a dig at audiobooks or its producer, Mark Ayres, it was an audiobooks release which incleded the telesnaps as a bonus and was thus prevented from including items such as CGI which feature on more modern recons, they did the best they could in the circumstances). As i have said earlier I know exactly how many copies of the unofficial recons have been circulated and its a lot, certainly enough to turn a profit if they were official releases, and whilst recon distribution is free to get them people still have to pay for a VHS tape, packaging and postage bots ways, probably a fiver a time? and have to make the effort of wrapping them up, going to the post office to post them etc etc, My opinion is most of those people would be prepared to pay the extra tenner to get it in better quality on a shiny DVD with no pissing about
So why don't we have DVD releases of recons? in my view firstly several members of the RT have stated they don't like them, thats fair enough as they are a love it or hate it thing, but that is hardly likely to have them supporting a product they have no belief in in any discussion of them, however we have had an audiobooks release which sold well and a follow up announced which was then withdrawn, therefore that must be editorial policy, for whatever reason? I also believe they are vastly underestimating the potential sales, thinking only a couple of hundred people would be interested, that is far from the case |
Has Doctor Who merchandise gone too far?
NEW Dalek condoms - specially produced so at the crucial moment they say "Halt, or you will be impregnated" |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 00:27:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
Hi everyone,
I'm new here but not new to the recons. I collected then way back in the day when they were first made available all those years ago from LC, JV and others now long gone.
As Time progressed the LC ones were always the best of the lot, pushing what was capable and adding many additional features.. ok enough sucking up, heres my question)
Why arn't the recons available for direct download or on DVD???
Don't shoot me, I've read some of the earlier threads on this but here my point of view. I don't have a VCR, I can't watch the recons that I do own from years ago anymore and I can't get the new ones and the re-visited ones either. The only way that I could see these is by downloading them.
The amount of work that goes into making these is awe inspiring, the quality of each one improved by every release and the new scans of the telesnaps ane infinatly better. Why ruin the quality of these recons by making them availabe on an out dated, no longer sold and poor quality format. I was lucky enough to be given a copy of The Underwater Menace on disk which I was told was DVD quality and it was... It was so watchable because of the sharpnes and quality of the visuals and I can see myself watching many more if they are in this format and of this quality.
It's been said that the BBC may step in and shut the site down, but, if they were gonna do something like this I think that they would have done it a long time ago, and at the end of the day the distribution of these is no more dificult by DVD than it is by VHS.
By putting these out on VHS the team is robbing people of the full experience of the superb quality that the recons are now demonstrating and limiting who can watch them as a lot of people now don't own VCR's.
So what can of worms have I opened here now i wonder???
So really it's a question of obstinance then? You want the recons released on DVD. They aren't. You could get them on VHS by buying a VCR for next to nothing, but you won't because it's simply obstinance. You want it your way or no way, be damned the fans who lose out if the BBC closes down Loose Cannon if they go to DVD. The bottom line is, you could view the LC recons for next to nothing if you chose to, but you choose not to because you can't have it your way. Hard to feel sorry for you then. |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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who04
Newbie
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 17:48:13
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| Have you thought about ordering all the LC recons, borrowing a VHS player from a friend or renting one, and use one of your DVD recorders to copy them onto disc? That's what I did. |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 20:27:13
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| He's just being petulant. He wants it his way or not at all. |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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TimM
Newbie
8 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 22:57:11
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Another easy way to get a vhs player is look up your local freecycle site on the internet:
Its quite likely there will be vhs machines being given away on it
( again because many people no longer need them;
also all items at freecycle are - as the name implies - absolutely free ) -
If there are ( & if not keep looking at the site over a few weeks or so - one's almost bound to turn up ) all you then have to do is arrange to pick it up!
And ( more likely if you're in an urban area )the giver may even be in easy walking distance! |
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Richard H
Newbie
7 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 23:25:06
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I'm not being petulant or nothing...
Tell you what, forget I even asked!!!!
And delete this forum account as well if you want |
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kajaboy
Legendary Time Traveller
United Kingdom
1761 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 07:52:37
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I would just point out that it's a good idea to keep hold of a VHS player and any videos with material you can't get on an official DVD. This is because, as people are finding out to their horror, that DVD-Rs have a habbit of going blank after a short amount of time.
I regret spending good money on "Myth Makers" DVD's as 2 of the 3 I got refuse to play as they were pressed on low quality DVD-Rs. |
"JN~T's Champion. Just try to complain about Mel, and you will answer to me"
http://www.myspace.com/boysteven |
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toxicspurge
Legendary Time Traveller
USA
6793 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 10:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
I'm not being petulant or nothing...
Tell you what, forget I even asked!!!!
And delete this forum account as well if you want
Oh...I see your point. That's not petulant at all!  |
I'm just sittin' here watching the wheels go 'round and 'round.... |
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The Black Guardian
Time Traveller
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2008 : 17:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard H
Sorry to be so negative here but basically, without me haveing to go and buy an out dated piece of equipment that apart from watching theres recons I've no use for at all AND without condoning the somewat dubious use of torrent sites I actually have no way of seeing all the excellent work being put in to these new/revamped recons????
| |
Possably an old question but I'll ask anyway.
