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toxicspurge
Rassilons Bitch



USA
13439 Posts

Posted - 14 Jan 2009 :  14:43:12  Show Profile Send toxicspurge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Man this is awesome! I love hearing all this behind the scenes stuff!

"There will always be 97 missing episodes of Doctor Who"
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USA
Mountain View


Aussie who-boy
Seasoned Time Traveller



Australia
1676 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  10:50:20  Show Profile Send Aussie who-boy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by toxicspurge

Man this is awesome! I love hearing all this behind the scenes stuff!



Indeed, me too!

Well! .......That really hits the nail on the head then doesn't it! .......ouch!!!
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toxicspurge
Rassilons Bitch



USA
13439 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  13:09:53  Show Profile Send toxicspurge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keep it coming guys!

"There will always be 97 missing episodes of Doctor Who"
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rickyt02
Newbie



1 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  13:51:17  Show Profile Send rickyt02 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by toxicspurge

Any idea what Bruce is doing these days, Ricky?



I was a dub site for Bruce in Australia in the early days and we have kept in occassional contact.

Bruce moved to the UK for work around 5 years ago and currently does not have any plans to move back to Australia any time soon. He does come back to Australia from time to time, most recently for Christmas and New Year. He is single.

He has travelled extensively through Europe and a little in Africa.

He has little involvement in anything Dr Who related these days but enjoys Torchwood.

Another Ricky

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toxicspurge
Rassilons Bitch



USA
13439 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  14:01:02  Show Profile Send toxicspurge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Another Ricky!

"There will always be 97 missing episodes of Doctor Who"
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rbrindell
Newbie



USA
23 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  20:00:26  Show Profile Send rbrindell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dean, you realize no one takes criticism like me!
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Russ
Head Administrator



United Kingdom
3588 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  20:08:36  Show Profile Send Russ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rbrindell

Dean, you realize no one takes criticism like me!



Hmmm, you clearly didn't see his review of the first draft of Evil.....

Though, actually, that was criticism of you as well, it was your draft i updated!!!

www.recons.com
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toxicspurge
Rassilons Bitch



USA
13439 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  20:12:04  Show Profile Send toxicspurge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LMAO!

"There will always be 97 missing episodes of Doctor Who"
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rbrindell
Newbie



USA
23 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  20:25:53  Show Profile Send rbrindell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Russ, welcome to my world. I am so happy I passed the torch on that! My self-confidence was taking a huge hit (not really).
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toxicspurge
Rassilons Bitch



USA
13439 Posts

Posted - 15 Jan 2009 :  20:38:58  Show Profile Send toxicspurge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You guys crack me up!!!!

"There will always be 97 missing episodes of Doctor Who"
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rdevelyn
Newbie



United Kingdom
11 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2009 :  20:05:50  Show Profile Send rdevelyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, there I was thinking of writing something in my blog about my Doctor Who fascination, when I came across this little thread.

I would like to put the record straight about one thing. Whatever may have happened between Robert and Rick over in the states, I never had any problem with Rick doing whatever he liked. Not only was I not in any way "pissed off" with what he was doing, I was, quite frankly, barely aware of it, and I never expressed any such opinion to anyone.

Broadly speaking the approach that I pursued was to try as much as possible to create something which would be as close to the lost episode as possible. This meant avoiding "jarring" effects such as displaying anything which could never possibly have existed in the episode, and even displaying telesnaps out of sequence (also because I liked to introduce new telesnaps as we went along rather than showing everything in at first). I was also, originally, against sub-titles, but caved in in the end (because I could see they made sense).

Since I did all the work on these originally I think I was perfectly entitled to do what I wanted. I had and have no problem with anyone doing anything else. I had absolutely nothing to do with this strange "Evil JV Empire" vs the "Loose Cannon Rick Brindell Freedom Fighter" perception which continues to this day.

When JV was formed, Michael Palmer took my original work and put the new telesnaps over the top of them plus the subtitles. These new telesnaps came out of DWM (I think this is common knowledge now, otherwise I hope this is far enough in the past not to get anyone into trouble). Somehow, a copy of one of my telesnap reconstructions had got to the editor and he had decided to support us, but secretly, of course. We couldn't say anything about where we had got the better telesnaps from, or give them out to anyone or use them on anything apart from our reconstructions. That is why we couldn't give them to Loose Cannon or anyone else.

Now, of course, better quality versions are on the BBC web site. Back then I had a friend of mine who worked for the Daily Mirror take them in and scan them on their high-dpi negative scanners. I cleaned them all up myself.

As far as JV reconstructions go now, since they haven't been distributed for quite a while, it's unlikely that the copies doing the rounds will be the same quality they used to be. I remember reading a glowing review of Evil by Gary Russel at the time, but that's all old history now.

The reason JV stopped was because Mark Ayers started releasing the soundtracks with narration on CD, and it was felt that we might be stepping on the BBC's toes. I have to say that I wasn't altogether convinced of this but since I wasn't involved in distribution, only production, and since Mark had at the time asked the BBC to "investigate" us, it seemed like it might be wise. We certainly had no desire to piss the BBC off.

I would like to think that as people now look back on the history of the reconstructions, it will be done with the recognition that a lot of people put a lot of unpaid work not only into producing these things but into getting them out into fandom. It was altruism in its truest sense, as I'm sure it still is now. Whatever disagreements took place, it was still principally fans helping out fans just out of a sense of love for the program.

Richard

(Richard Develyn - of the old JV Team)
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rbrindell
Newbie



USA
23 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  01:19:59  Show Profile Send rbrindell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Richard

Very nice to hear from you. Thanks for adding your thoughts, memories and comments to this (seemingly) interesting thread. I agree whole-heartedly with your thoughts on how the early history of reconstructions should be remembered.


Rockin' Ricky
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Russ
Head Administrator



United Kingdom
3588 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  02:23:39  Show Profile Send Russ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think (at least reading between the lines) that NOTHING actually went off between Robert and Rick as such, it was simply a case of JV were the people in "Pole Position" at the time, simply Richard and Michael had started their recons first and in effect created the genre, they had proved their worth and created what (at that time) were considered the best recons there were and that they had the patience and commitment to do them, therefore people helped them do it by supplying stuff they wouldn't supply to someone who hadn't proved their worth, the perception therefore is that they are "the evil empire" and anyone else trying is "the freedom fighter" as they are doing so against the odds, we have a similar situation now I suppose to a certain extent where Loose Cannon get quite a lot of help from Private Collectors and other people whereas anyone wanting to bung a recon on YouTube (or whatever) may not get that help, Rick, you are now "The Evil Empire!" It's just the way life is and it depends which "side" you are on as to how you percieve it, It is quite hard to do something when other people are already established as doing it well, those doing it well initially hold the best cards!

Regarding the JV quality issue, I think that most copies doing the rounds aren't of a vastly reduced quality to what they were originally any more than the earlier LC ones are, however I do think recons have moved on along with technology, format changes have become much easier so less quality is lost, source material is available in better formats and as time goes on lessons are learnt in how to do things, in my view the JV recons are of very similar quality to the LC recons of the same period, the JV ones had the better quality telesnaps so Rick was very careful about which stories were released by LC, if you look at the early LC releases you have

1) Macra Terror - Not done by JV (at that point)
2) Faceless Ones - Perhaps the oddity as in direct competition
3) Myth Makers - Non telesnap
4) Tenth Planet - JV or rather Michael Palmer had done a brilliant version of this which used clips - the LC version was telesnaps - which JV had no intention of doing a telesnap version of
5) Space Pirates - Non telesnap
6) Savages - Telesnaps in private hands so able to compete quality wise
7) Smugglers - not done by JV (any idea why Richard? seems an odd one to miss?)
8) Toymaker - non telesnap
9) Highlanders - not done by JV at that time
10) Power - telesnaps in private hands
11) Galaxy 4 - Non telesnap
12) Reign of Terror - non telesnap - if you look carefully it's clear LC had a better quality video copy than Michael Palmer used)
13) Mission to the Unknown - non telesnap
14) Crusade - telesnaps in private hands

Very clever "marketing" strategy indeed, not competing where you can't win, so the ranges complimented each other quite well and, at the point JV stopped, LC started to do more of the Troughton telesnap stories, the telesnaps of which were now available in better quality.

The JV recons are of a similar time to LC1 to LC10, most of which have been/are ready to be replaced, those that have not now look rather poor Quality compared to newer stuff, the JV recons fall into this category as well

I think with the easy availability of telesnaps on the BBC site these days people forget how much work Richard (and Rick in the early days as well) put into actually getting telesnaps, they were scanned, often on a 400dpi hand scanner and, for the very early ones, inserted through the editing facilities of a VCR, the latest technology at the time but very dated now, I dread to think how boring that must have been!

Here is a passage from the old Disused Yeti newsletter of how Richard did it

quote:
Once the script and telesnaps have been prepared, Richard then picture inserted each telesnap on to video tape. Initially, the video tape only had a copy of the soundtrack recorded on to it. Using the following procedure, Richard inserted each of the telesnaps one-by-one :

(a) wait for the audio cue;
(b) press pause;
(c) rewind the tape by 14 frames (Richard’s average reaction time);
(d) display the photo on screen;
(e) press “picture insert”, which commences the recording;
(f) wait for the next audio cue, and then stop the tape;
(g) rewind the tape and check.

Richard estimates that the above procedure worked successfully around eighty percent of the time. For the other twenty percent, it is simply a case of repeating the entire process.


Far easier these days in a video editing programme!

And here is the review from Gary Russell of the JV version of Evil Richard mentions

quote:
I have always felt rather “anti” the telesnap reconstructions, as in principal, they seemed a little pointless. Once, many years ago, I had the opportunity to witness The Power of the Daleks Episode One completed in this format (and God, was it hell to watch). So until I actually sat down to watch one (Marco Polo), I hadn’t given the hard work completed by the reconstruction creators much thought. But then I watched Polo. And asked for more.

So, I ended up with Evil. Frankly, it was like watching a brand new DOCTOR WHO story (or at least, a recovered one, a la Tomb). Oh yes, I knew the story to some extent, but on seeing this version, it succeeded in adding subtle nuances to the story – characters were brought back to life, and it reinforced my view that David Whitaker did write terribly good Dalek dialogue.

On the actual reconstruction side, the sheer intelligence that has gone into selecting particular images for particular scenes is amazing. The patience and understanding that the team must have when one considers the limited quantity of material, is awe-inspiring. Never did I become bored with specific images – in fact, there were lots of little things I liked. This included the recap from Episode 1 being given a telesnap “edge” at the start of Episode 2, the tiny clip of the Dalek city in Episode 7, etc. Of course, the reconstruction does show up some of the flaws with the original material as well. It is overlong. It is unsatisfying at the end – what does happen to Theodore Maxtible exactly? And what is the point of Arthur Terrall?

But overall, seeing Evil in this form has achieved something I would never have imagined possible. For years, next to the original transmitted stories, I have always maintained that the Target novelisations are the most important aspect of Who. The Evil of the Daleks being available in this format, with clarity of image and sound, and inventiveness borne out of a fandom who should, by rights, be bored, cynical and exhausted by now, has altered that opinion. This series of reconstructions IS the new Number Two. Thanks Guys.

(GARY RUSSELL)


I must say i have one major disagreement with Richard on how to produce a recon which is displaying telesnaps out of order, in my view a recon is an attempt to convey what was on screen to the people who are watching, now (clips aside) you can't display exactly what was on screen, we simply don't have the available material, in my view a telesnap, whilst usually the most accurate source of conveying things, isn't always so, simplty because it is of one frame of a sequence, a good example of this is the very end of the LC recon of Evil, if you look i have omitted a telesnap of the emporer at the end and instead used a photo which i have animate with fire, smoke, debris etc and panned across, if i had used the telesnap i would have simply had to use the telesnap with a caption explaining what had happened, whereas using the animated photo i could convey the same thing in a much more interesting way, in my view (and i accept other people have different views) this is more accurate to the original programme despite being at a slightly different angle and not quite what was on screen than a single frame telsnap. The same principal applies to using telesnaps before their correct time, if it conveys what is on screen better, then use it! What is the difference between using it before it's correct time or after? Personally i would regard it as more jarring to have something completely different on screen because the telesnap you have doesn't appear till episode 6 so you can't use it in episode 1!

I have to say, just to finish this long winded ramble, that everyone who enjoys watching recons today really owes a debt of gratitude to all the hard work people who are no longer as heavily involved, such as Richard, Rick, Robert Franks, Bruce Robinson, the late Michael Palmer and Derek Handley put into them, personally i always find it very annoying when anyone says older recons are rubbish, they are often dated but in the ocntext of their time, were excellent (apart from the odd rubbish one but that's a different matter!

Richard, marvellous to have you on here, feel free to post more memories

www.recons.com
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rbrindell
Newbie



USA
23 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  13:23:30  Show Profile Send rbrindell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Russ, good comments.

In reference to the comments about telesnap usage, in the earlier recons I always tried not to use a telesnap before it should have appeared in the story proper if possible. But would re-use as often as needed after that point. As Richard said, that way there were still some new photos to be used later in the stories.

Incidentally, with all the talk about the "Evil Empire vs the FReedom Fighters", Robert and I never had any personal disagreements ever. As has been read between the lines of this thread from various peoples' recollections it was just the upstarts being perceived as stepping on toes, and the predecessors keeping their promises to hold off spreading material to others.

This is just part of the history of how we all now have these wonderful creations to enjoy. I was proud to be a part of it.

I will say, I truly believe that all our efforts to create the recons opened up the eyes of the BBC that there is quite an interest by the fans in these early stories, hence the BBC's release of the audios, and subsequent video releases. The animated Invasion is a good example of that. Its a shame, none of us were recognized in even the smallest way by the BBC for what we did.
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Richard Bignell
Time Traveller



United Kingdom
738 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  14:27:28  Show Profile Send Richard Bignell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My own meagre contribution to the early reconstructions was getting COI and JV access to the tele-snaps. Up until then, scans were being taken directly out of the pages of DWM, and as the quality of printing on the early ones wasn't brilliant, the images on screen were none to good! I approached Gary Russell and asked if he'd unofficially allow the reconstructors direct access to DWM's originals - one large-format negative of each page of the BBC's tele-snaps folder, passed onto Richard Develyn (as he notes above) and scanned on a high-res professional scanner. Expensive kit, at the time! From memory, I offered them first to Bruce Robinson to use on the recon of The Enemy of the World that he was planning at the time.

It should also be remembered that one of things that caused JV and latterly MPP to reconsider their position was the events surrounding the 1998 prosecution by FACT of Stephen Bennett, who was selling reconstructions (and audios). This brought an uncomfortable focus on the recons and for a time, the JV website was taken down.

Details about the case were included in Issue #14 of The Disused Yeti.

You must be logged in to see this link.

Richard
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Russ
Head Administrator



United Kingdom
3588 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  14:58:02  Show Profile Send Russ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Naturally Richard forgets to mention his contribution of the brilliant Making of Fury doco....

Whilst undoubtedly worrying at the time the Bennet case was a reasonable while before (official) distribution stopped and ended up having no real relevence to the recons (though that wasn't known whilst the case went on), was it really that much of a factor Richard?

There are various stories about why JV/MPP/COI stopped, fear of potential prosecution due to missing audio releases and they simply got fed up of it being the other, i suspect a combination of the two, though Michael Palmer did release a couple of "unofficial" recons after the end of MPP and if it hadn't been for his sad passing may well have released more

I bought a load of missing episode audios long before i was connected to the internet from a guy at a memorabilia show, i always wondered if it was the same guy (Bennet), quality was horrible but better than nothing!

www.recons.com
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Pip
Time Traveller



Canada
757 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  20:01:00  Show Profile  Visit Pip's Homepage Send Pip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My one memory of the Bennett situation was one of the JV recons (I think it must have been The Faceless Ones), where they made an video for Recons in Distress
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rdevelyn
Newbie



United Kingdom
11 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  20:54:03  Show Profile Send rdevelyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello everyone,

Russ, thanks for your comments especially. I was beginning to get a bit aereated there. Here's a bit more info from the past:

I made recons of all season 4 and 5 stories except for Tenth Planet and EOTW. JV upgraded all my stories except Snowmen (IIRC). We were working on a JV EOTW but I'm not sure what happened to that. Macra and Highlanders were actually made on to video CD but I'm not sure they were ever released. I know I did the JV work (at that stage, processing / cleaning up pictures) for Snowmen and EOTW (plus I scripted that one), but I really can't remember what happened with those two in the end because Michael passed away whilst it was all going on :-(

I had nothing to do with stopping the JV distribution. I accepted the judgement of Robert and the distribution guys at the time. I wonder, now, whether there might be an appetite for these reconstructions again, especially as the BBC have probably made as much money out of the missing episodes as they're likely to. I certainly haven't got a problem digging my copies out.

Although I'm missing one of my originals (!). The Smugglers I leant to Gary (forgotten his surname, then editor of DWM, not Russel) and never got back. It was he, BTW, not Gary Russel, who let me borrow the telesnap negatives.

I've always thought I would revisit this project sometime in the future. I still have all my CDs with the picture work I did, which I think in some cases is better than the pics on the BBC web site. I don't have my scripts anymore - they all went to Michael, and I didn't recover them from his house after he died.

I believe that LC originally didn't target telesnap stories because we had the good quality scans and the difference in quality was too great. Like I said, we couldn't share them. I really did give my personal assurance. Now I don't suppose it matters any more, but that's how it was then. DWM did get copies of all the scans, BTW, and they even creditted me on one of their issues :-)

And on the point of getting credit for all this, I always felt I couldn't really expect any because I did all this work for myself. I was quite happy for other people to benefit from my work, but I was doing it principally because I wanted to have and watch reconstructions of these episodes that I am still *very* annoyed and upset no longer exist.

All the best

Richard
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Russ
Head Administrator



United Kingdom
3588 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  21:41:13  Show Profile Send Russ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I have VHS copies of Macra and Highlanders so they were released but on a much quieter basis than previous recons, I suspect Enemy and Snowmen were at the back of the queue as there was relatively recent COI versions of them at that time using (i believe) the same telesnaps so, whilst the COI and JV recons had many differences (mostly the on screen script) it seems reasonably to assume the ones done by COI would be lower priority and, as you say, Michael passed away. I have never heard of any version on Video CD though, it may be Michael only let out VHS copies as per Loose Cannon?

I imagine the Gary you refer to is Gary Gillat

Out of interest Richard have you seen any of the more recent recons?

And, again from curiosity, whilst there was an original pre JV version of Smugglers there doesn't seem to be a Savages?

According to my records your pre JV releases were

March 95 Web of Fear
June 95 Wheel in Space
October 95 Ice Warriors
March 96 Fury from the Deep
September 96 Underwater Menace
November 96 Highlanders
November 96 Moonbase
January 97 Smugglers
February 97 Abominable Snowmen
September 97 Power of the Daleks

Of course many of these were updated as JV recons (as Richard says with the better quality telesnaps), also released under the JV banner were Evil and Faceless Ones and, much later, Macra, but no sign of Savages at all, did you actually do a Savages Richard?

www.recons.com
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Russ
Head Administrator



United Kingdom
3588 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2009 :  22:29:26  Show Profile Send Russ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rdevelyn

I've always thought I would revisit this project sometime in the future. I still have all my CDs with the picture work I did, which I think in some cases is better than the pics on the BBC web site. I don't have my scripts anymore - they all went to Michael, and I didn't recover them from his house after he died.




The BBC site (bar a few exceptions) has scans direct from the telsnap so they will be of better quality than your scans, the cleanup however leaves a lot to be desired.... Best example being when they cleaned the alpha sign off an Evil telesnap thinking it was a scratch!

www.recons.com
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TelesnapGuy
Newbie



6 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  11:21:15  Show Profile Send TelesnapGuy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahhh, the memories. I hope no one minds me jumping in here as this thread was just pointed out to me. Please forgive the length of my response as I just started replying to everything as I was reading along…

quote:
Originally posted by rbrindell

It was a blurry Macra Terror recon but I was proud of it. NOt sure if anyone still has a copy of that but I'd be willing to bet someone does.

Hahaha. I do, of course! In fact, I have two versions of the Space In Time 'Macra', and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who still has a copy of your first edit, Rick.

The very first early edition had a single still for 'A Space In Time Production' and then goes right into the opening Troughton titles. The opening titles, shown over the eyes have no new captions, and when the descriptive captions scroll across the screen you made the tele-snaps smaller so the captions were under them.

The edit that was distributed had a scrolling (bottom to top) caption for 'A Space In Time Production' and new titles (eg 'The Macra Terror') in black under the original titles on the tele-snaps. The descriptive captions still scrolled from right to left, but now over the tele-snaps, but not with the black background yet.

IIRC, you very quickly modified this to a LC recon with intro captions and all the regular LC bits you had decided on, so I'm not sure if many people ever did see the SiT version, and certainly not your very first edit.

quote:
Anyway, after Macra I released Faceless Ones, another fairly blurry recon with scrolling captions. If I recall correctly the JV guys were pretty pissed off at me because I produced and released them so fast. IN fact my friend Craig Fuqua from Texas told me I was being viewed by the JV guys as a "loose cannon" and I loved that name, so I adopted it and had my daughter Karen draw up the LC logo you have seen for years on each release.

"Pissed off" might be too strong a term, but I recall that we were definitely annoyed that we were beaten to the punch because of an agreement we had with DWM, but you had no way of knowing this at the time. You just worked a lot quicker than us. :)

quote:
Eventually I wanted to continue my efforts and since the JV had tackled most of the telesnapped serials at this point I decided to try my hand at Myth Makers. Dean and Derek, who were good mates, were chosen to be the official UK dub site for that recon when it was released by the JV team. They were quite intrigued to hear how I planned to pull that off with only 7 remaining publicity photos. To be honest, I hadn't a clue but I loved the story so I decided I would use mainly screen grabs from other period DR Who serials like the Romans for example and supplement it with screen shots from other Trojan movies.

And 'Up Pompeii', don't forget that. For those of you that don't know, Rick loves 'Up Pompeii'. *grin*

quote:
Originally posted by Russ

Just to clarify a bit here, At that time each dubsite was assigned a specific story rather than the current system,

This was the system set up on the UK by my friend, Dominic Jackson. All the US/Aus/NZ dubsites copied all the recons. I don't recall the reason for doing it this way in the UK, but it might have been to get better dubbing masters, but here in the US I always supplied copies of the recons to all the dub sites before letting others start to request it.

quote:
Rick, you say Derek was chosen to distribute Myth when it was released by JV, would JV have done Myth Makers? I recall Toymaker was scheduled for a long while (but never completed) but i would imagine Myth would be an unlikely recon for them at that stage?

No, 'Myth Makers' was the LC recon only. We never planned a 'Myth Makers', but 'Toymaker' is another story. We did do some preliminary work on 'Toymaker' in fact, I have a tape around here of the first episode prepared by Michael. It was in a very rough state and had a lot of "gaps" for new picture composites to be inserted. Just another project that never got completed. I think this was partly do to Rick wanting to do the story so we backed off. The plan was to come back to it later (at the time we were trying to co-ordinate releases so the same stories didn't overlap closely), but circumstances changed with Michael as we all know.

quote:
From what I understand the JV recon was more or less ready to go at the time you released Faceless Ones, I think it was a case of they had better access to the telesnaps but held off with FO until they were officially printed in DWM but you were that quick you actually scanned them from DWM and beat them to release (though the JV version would have had better quality telesnaps) and rather stole the thunder.


I think I can safely talk about all this now, but at the time it was a rather big deal... We had been allowed access to the DWM negatives for the tele-snaps. Richard Develyn arranged for these all to be scanned on (what was at the time) a high-powered professional scanner. Richard then meticulously cleaned up each scan and separated them into individual files. We then gave these back to DWM and they used them to print from (it was a mutually beneficial arrangement as they no longer had to clean up or print the tele-snaps so dark to hide all the glue stains, etc). We had agreed to keep this arrangement quiet so we couldn't really release 'Faceless Ones' until all the episodes had been printed in DWM. As I mentioned above, Rick had no way of knowing this though, and we were unaware that he was working on that story. I don't think it was so much about someone stealing our thunder as much as it was just a matter of bad planning. After that we made sure to talk with Rick and try to avoid things each other were planning.

quote:
I think it's telling that the stories released after FO were (pretty much) non telesnap ones, at that time Myth Makers was considered impossible to produce as a recon, as Rick says there were only 7 photos existing and, in my view, the reason Loose Cannon is still here today is the decision not to compete head on with the JV team,who had access to better quality scans of the telesnaps but to go for the trickier non telesnap stories, Myth Makers, Tenth Planet in telesnaps (JV never produced a telesnap version of this as the late Michael Palmer of the JV team produced a version which consisted mostly of clips, it was a "love or hate" recon, very similar to a badly dubbed Asian movie!) and Space Pirates, which contained mostly screencaps from episode 2 and the few photos of Pirates and space ships but, again, considered nigh on impossible at that time.


At the time both the JV and COI teams had several plans for most of the tele-snapped stories so when we started talking to Rick he took it as a challenge to do the non-tele-snap ones we were shying away from. And, I think he deserves a huge measure of credit for tackling these. I know Derek and Dean came in to help out with composite shots and the like, but their whole team started to come up with new and interesting ways to look at recons that helped invigorate the whole thing.

There was a semi-JV 'Tenth Planet', but never a pure tele-snap version. Distributed around the same time as 'The Moonbase' the newer version included a shorted version of the first three episodes and then a mixture of tele-snaps and clips that updated the original Palmer version.

quote:
The only non telesnap stories released at that point by anyone were Michael Palmer's versions of Reign of Terror (mostly screen caps from existing episodes), Tenth Planet (badly dubbed movie as mentioned), Invasion (screen caps from existing episodes again) and Mission to the Unknown, which was probably the forerunner of most modern non telesnap recons at it consisted of clips from elsewhere and photoshopped (or whatever it was available at that time, PhotoDeluxe?) shots of Cory, Garvey and Lowery, plus the existing photos. None of which had the paucity of source material of SP or Myth with so few options and so much time to fill, also remember with the software available then, composite pictures were far less convincing and, therefore, much less used


You've forgotten to mention Bruce Robinson's COI version of 'Marco Polo' and Harold Achatz's versions of 'The Nightmare Begins'. Harry's first episode of 'Master Plan' is probably the hardest for people to watch, but it was a good effort to try something new. Not many people know this, but he produced two versions, but the one with the full script is not commonly circulated.

quote:
Originally posted by Pip

And of course there's the perennial favourite of The Disused Yeti - certainly I think it deserves to be relaunched in some form!


I think the day of the 'netzine is passed us for now, at least as far as what 'Disused Yeti' covered. Those early Internet days people were clamouring for information about missing episodes and tele-snaps, etc. Now that's all pretty much public knowledge. Of course I'm biased, but I think that 'Nothing a the End of the Lane' does a great job of carrying on the tradition of 'Disused Yeti'. Publishing as a magazine gives us a better chance to present things in a nice layout and we still do have a few surprises up our sleeve for issue three. ;-)

quote:
Originally posted by rbrindell

I remember Paul Cryer's Massacre. I was in steady contact with Paul in those days. I visited his site often. I thought only Patrick and I had copies of that recon:)


Wrong again! :) I’ve got a copy here, too.

quote:
In the early days before the organized distribution network, the only way you could find out when a new release was available was by an email from the dub site. As I mentioned earlier, Robert Franks asked that I become one of his dub sites in the US. He was the main US producer and I was one of a # of dubbers (20-25 I would think).


Oh gosh, we're really going back! To add some more background, I remember stumbling across a mention of the "crystal clear audios" on the old Ben Jackson Homepage. After that, I quickly was trying to get copies of the missing episode audios and told about these "reconstruction" things. I remember the day the I first popped in 'Fury from the Deep' and 'Wheel in Space' in utter shock at how brilliantly the opening titles had been recreated by Stephen Cranford and then settled back to *watch* them for the first time. Of course, I already had one reconstruction (as the term 'recon' hadn't been coined yet) in my video collection. This was a very poor copy of all six episodes of 'Power of the Daleks' but I'd always been fascinated by the idea. I quickly tracked down Richard Develyn and found out he had been trying to set up a distribution network of sorts, so along with Bruce Robinson in Australia and Dominic Jackson in the UK we ironed out the details and set this up on my old AOL site way back in 1996. I only recall around 12 or so dub sites to start with, but we're all so old now the memory cheats.

quote:
I'm pretty sure Robert and I met at a convention around 1994 where he was running the video room, playing a very early recon, can't remember which one. But this is where I saw them for the first time.


That's right, we did meet up at a con - had to be Visions '96 as that's the first one I was at since 1993. I do recall always checking the video rooms and trying to trade copies of episodes. *grin*

quote:
Also I remember that Robert had very good contacts and could get bootleg copies of the remaining episodes that no one ever thought would be released, like TP4, Ice Warriors, etc. I was so excited but they were probably 100 generations down and you could barely make them out. It didn't matter though.


Yes, I was always trying to get better copies and then share them with people - I think that's how we met. And, then after I'd sent you a few tapes I was setting up the dub sites and asked you to join in. IIRC, you were the only one who actually went out and bought a brand new VCR just to help out! :)

quote:
Robert was pretty friendly with Charlie Daniels from California and they both came to NY to visit me in 95/96. Charlie has moved to the UK a few years ago. I really liked him. Very nice guy. Funny too.


My first trip to New York and I remember it quite fondly too. You were a great host showing us all around. I still remember parts of it like it was yesterday... that street fair in Greenwich and the pizza shop. I also remember us staying in your daughter's room. VERY good memories.

quote:
Robert was from Ohio but has moved around, last I heard Minnesota but that was years ago. I always saw him at the cons which I quit going to a few years back. I don't think he ever really liked me. I'm too "9 to 5" to fit in.


Still in Minnesota, yep. Of course I liked you Rick, we were never the best of friends but we share a love of same things and our lives will forever be intertwined with all this recon business. We just grown apart over the years, but I still remember the lump in my throat on 9/11 and worrying about you and your family.

quote:
I think Robert and Charlie had problems and stopped talking eventually, but then again this was a long time ago. Water under the bridge.


As you say, water under the bridge. I saw Charlie a couple of years ago at a con in the UK and we chatted for a bit. Our lives just had separate paths, but I'm very glad things have turned out well for him.

quote:
With the help of Derek and Dean and their never ending resources, we were able to produce high level productions. I think its fair to say that the JV/COI guys just thought I would go away after the "Macra Affair" but that didn't happen. As Russ has mentioned, I was ready to move ahead and since I never expected to get better scans than what I had in DW magazine, I produced and released FO very quickly and really pissed those guys off. It was never said, but its the truth. OK, I can be impulsive too, but hey, what the hell, you wanted to see this stuff right?


Hahahaha... OK, we might have seen you as a bit of a thorn in our side, but that was more because we had all these plans and then you turned up. In the end, we all worked everything out and to be brutally honest, I think even then our interest was starting to wane. You came along at just the right time to take over - a new generation indeed.

But no matter what's happened, I've never stopped considering you a friend! :)

quote:
Ahh the good old days...Reminiscing... Now I'm all depressed. Good night.


Hey, don't get depressed. We're all older (and wiser maybe) now. It was certainly all a lot of fun back then, and I like all this reminiscing.

quote:
Bruce Robinson was the guy responsible for the COI (Change of Identity) recons and he was from Australia for those of you who don't know. In the early days, he was producing telesnapped stories on his own. I recall he did an early version of Enemy of the World actually along with the Abominable Snowmen which is what put him on the map. As COI was producing recons very similar to the ones being produced by others they decided to form Joint Venture (JV).


That's sort of a meshing of what happened. Bruce started out with 'Savages' and 'Power of the Daleks' and then did 'Marco Polo' around the same time Stephen Cranford and I were helping Richard Develyn with his recons and Michael Palmer was getting started with his. Michael, Richard and I decided to form Joint Venture when the new tele-snap scans became available. Bruce wanted to continue t work on his own as he felt he had his own style with including the full scripts with the COI recons. Years (and years) later, we had planned to form a new group (Master Plan Productions) that would have combined both the COI and JV styles, but that's about the time that Michael got sick and Bruce got very busy with work so nothing ever came of it except a first draft of 'Marco Polo' that I still have on disc around here somewhere. Derek and Dean were involved with that also. The first episode was very nearly completed, with "draft" versions of episodes 3-7.

quote:
Bruce was a very nice guy and came to visit me back in 1998 or so. He flew in for a convention in California where he met Robert and his mates. I believe they took a drive to Las Vegas after that for a couple of days.


Yes, we had a road to from LA to Las Vegas and then to the Grand Canyon! It was on that very long trip back to LA that Bruce and I formalised plans for the Master Plan recons. Never to be. *sigh*

quote:
After which Bruce flew into New York to visit me. He stayed with me for a few days in February of that year. He was a fine house guest. I recall he was amazed that the trees had no leaves on them because it was winter. He was from a temperate climate and never saw trees that had lost their leaves for the winter.


Yes, I remember telling him to quit playing in the snow at the Grand Canyon or he was going to slip and break his leg! Hahahahaha ... good memories.

quote:
He lasted a couple more years doing the recons, but I believe he lost interest in the recons eventually, and decided to quit producing them.


Bruce moved first to Sydney, and then to the UK (where he still is today) and has all but dropped out of fandom together. He sometimes finds the time to watch the new series but so far hasn't been overly impressed enough to come back online to all the madness that is fandom.

quote:
Originally posted by Russ

MPP fell through AIUI because the people involved got fed up with doing the recons (and probably the harrasment of people moaning about missed deadlines etc - one of the reasons LC never announce release dates) but Michael Palmer released a couple more recons (Macra and Highlanders IIRC) under the JV banner before he sadly passed away


There was a certain irritation at the time by some people's expectations, but those were just a few minor but very vocal people that made it hard to feel the "fun" in doing the recons anymore. I don't even recall their names anymore. The JV 'Macra' and 'Highlanders were never fully distributed because by that time with the one court case and the few fans mentioned above some of us just felt like fading away and letting LC take over the reins.

quote:
Originally posted by rbrindell

I haven't heard from Bruce in years, but I hope he has settled down with a beautiful wife and has a few little Bruces running around:)


Unfortunately not yet, although he always does seem to have a throng of women swooning at his accent. :)
(I'll have to tell him I said that now)

quote:
Originally posted by Dr Dean

My memory of Master Plan Productions are not that the makers lost interest. It was mainly because we didn't /couldn't agree with the way we wanted recons making. The JV approach was very much telesnaps in place minimum or no captions. No telesnaps out of place. Whereas Derek and I wanted to tell the story as best as possible. Whether this be with material from other sources, making stuff ourselves or composites. Also the most frustrating thing for us was that the editing was out of our hands and we found progress very slow.


Ahh yes, I remember those discussions too. I don't think we were worried so much about tele-snaps out of place, but Michael and I did feel strongly about the use of newly made shots for the recon. I seem to remember something about a goldfish. Oh well, long time ago now. We probably would have finished 'Marco Polo' if Bruce hadn't lost interest. Michael never really liked the story as much and wanted to move on to other things before he ended up getting sick.

quote:
Originally posted by rdevelyn

Now, of course, better quality versions are on the BBC web site. Back then I had a friend of mine who worked for the Daily Mirror take them in and scan them on their high-dpi negative scanners. I cleaned them all up myself.


Hiya Richard! I wouldn't be so sure about the BBC scans being better. They are all cropped a bit and over-darkened to hide a lot of the blemishes. You spent a ton of time cleaning up those original scans and it showed. The BBC ones don't have as much noise and detail, but the ones scanned from the negatives do have better tones and bring out details sometimes hidden in the BBC online versions.

quote:
The reason JV stopped was because Mark Ayers started releasing the soundtracks with narration on CD, and it was felt that we might be stepping on the BBC's toes. I have to say that I wasn't altogether convinced of this but since I wasn't involved in distribution, only production, and since Mark had at the time asked the BBC to "investigate" us, it seemed like it might be wise. We certainly had no desire to piss the BBC off.


Ahh yes, everyone seems to think Rick and I are at each other's throats but I do recall Mark Ayres and I having a few tense e-mails now. All water under the bridge a long time ago now, but there were several times that things got a bit "tight" with the BBC and such back in those days. Yes, that was another major reason to bow out when we did.

quote:
I would like to think that as people now look back on the history of the reconstructions, it will be done with the recognition that a lot of people put a lot of unpaid work not only into producing these things but into getting them out into fandom. It was altruism in its truest sense, as I'm sure it still is now. Whatever disagreements took place, it was still principally fans helping out fans just out of a sense of love for the program.


That's the best way to say it really - thanks, Richard! I certainly don't look back on any of it with resentment for anyone. I enjoyed my time working on the recons, and working with everyone I did. Some of them I'm still in touch with, and some of them I wish I still was, but that's life. I do wish this whole thing about wars behind the scenes could be put to rest though. Certainly, my over-riding goal was to share everything I could with other fans and I always be glad to have been involved as I was.

quote:
Originally posted by Russ

7) Smugglers - not done by JV (any idea why Richard? seems an odd one to miss?)


Michael just never got to it, which is a shame really as it's one of Richard's favorite stories.

quote:
I must say i have one major disagreement with Richard on how to produce a recon which is displaying telesnaps out of order, in my view a recon is an attempt to convey what was on screen to the people who are watching, now (clips aside) you can't display exactly what was on screen, we simply don't have the available material, in my view a telesnap, whilst usually the most accurate source of conveying things, isn't always so, simplty because it is of one frame of a sequence, a good example of this is the very end of the LC recon of Evil, if you look i have omitted a telesnap of the emporer at the end and instead used a photo which i have animate with fire, smoke, debris etc and panned across, if i had used the telesnap i would have simply had to use the telesnap with a caption explaining what had happened, whereas using the animated photo i could convey the same thing in a much more interesting way, in my view (and i accept other people have different views) this is more accurate to the original programme despite being at a slightly different angle and not quite what was on screen than a single frame telsnap. The same principal applies to using telesnaps before their correct time, if it conveys what is on screen better, then use it! What is the difference between using it before it's correct time or after? Personally i would regard it as more jarring to have something completely different on screen because the telesnap you have doesn't appear till episode 6 so you can't use it in episode 1!


It's all just down to taste, and we each had our own little things we brought to the creative circle. Richard did feel strongly about not using the tele-snaps before their time, which Michael and I didn't necessarily agree with, but as a team effort we went along with. The JV recons always started out with Richard's original as the basis. Michael and I each had our own hands in bits and pieces too, so overall the JV recons were a team effort. However, we could never do everything that other people would like. Some people preferred our way, some the LC or COI way - it was great t have options. Myself, I never liked panning across photos as I feel it makes them look more "flat", but as you mention from your 'Evil' recon other people may like this. We just created the recons we wanted to see (with some compromise among the team) and then shared them with other people. It’s great that everyone had a choice eventually so you could have it the way you preferred (or at least closer to).

quote:
I have to say, just to finish this long winded ramble, that everyone who enjoys watching recons today really owes a debt of gratitude to all the hard work people who are no longer as heavily involved, such as Richard, Rick, Robert Franks, Bruce Robinson, the late Michael Palmer and Derek Handley put into them, personally i always find it very annoying when anyone says older recons are rubbish, they are often dated but in the ocntext of their time, were excellent (apart from the odd rubbish one but that's a different matter!


Thanks, Russ! It's a very nice sentiment, and I'm happy to have known and worked with all of those people. I was in very good company!!

quote:
Originally posted by rbrindell

Incidentally, with all the talk about the "Evil Empire vs the FReedom Fighters", Robert and I never had any personal disagreements ever. As has been read between the lines of this thread from various peoples' recollections it was just the upstarts being perceived as stepping on toes, and the predecessors keeping their promises to hold off spreading material to others.


Indeed, I can only echo your words. Not only have Rick and I never actually had any of the imagined fights, but I think we both hold each other in high regard and talk well of each other when the situation presents itself.

quote:
I will say, I truly believe that all our efforts to create the recons opened up the eyes of the BBC that there is quite an interest by the fans in these early stories, hence the BBC's release of the audios, and subsequent video releases. The animated Invasion is a good example of that. Its a shame, none of us were recognized in even the smallest way by the BBC for what we did.


*sigh* I doubt that'll ever be the case, my friend. But, then we both know what the truth is and how all of us have made a difference.

quote:
Originally posted by Russ

There are various stories about why JV/MPP/COI stopped, fear of potential prosecution due to missing audio releases and they simply got fed up of it being the other, i suspect a combination of the two, though Michael Palmer did release a couple of "unofficial" recons after the end of MPP and if it hadn't been for his sad passing may well have released more


The other JVs were actually worked on while 'Marco Polo' was being done and before that actually, they just happened to be "released" later. Bruce leaving the fold was primarily the reason for everything turning around. He really did let a lot of the negative comments get to him, so much that this is still part of why he avoids fandom. Without Bruce it took Michael and I awhile to decide if we wanted to continue and it just became too much to do on our own, so we moved on as well. It was shortly after this that Michael started to get ill, but he never lost his interest in the era. I used to send him the BBC missing audios when they'd come out. We actually did talk about the thing's he's like to do when he got out of hospital, but a lot of what had gone on had worn him down too and I think he wanted to stay away from recons.

quote:
I bought a load of missing episode audios long before i was connected to the internet from a guy at a memorabilia show, i always wondered if it was the same guy (Bennet), quality was horrible but better than nothing!


No, those would not have been Bennett's. His audios were all restored in some way (by someone else) and presented in jewel cases with covers, etc. That's part of the reason he attracted so much attention.

quote:
Well I have VHS copies of Macra and Highlanders so they were released but on a much quieter basis than previous recons, I suspect Enemy and Snowmen were at the back of the queue as there was relatively recent COI versions of them at that time using (i believe) the same telesnaps so, whilst the COI and JV recons had many differences (mostly the on screen script) it seems reasonably to assume the ones done by COI would be lower priority and, as you say, Michael passed away. I have never heard of any version on Video CD though, it may be Michael only let out VHS copies as per Loose Cannon?


The VCDs were just used for the masters as, of course, we didn't want to aggravate the BBC by provided copies that way. Copies were then provided to each of the dub sites and they made copies from there, but as you say this was a lot more on the quiet side.

quote:
I imagine the Gary you refer to is Gary Gillat


Indeed, Gary Gillatt had taken over as editor by the time we made the scans, but Mr Bignell is remembering correctly as both he and I had approached Gary Russell before that to start negotiations.

Well this has been fun. I hope I didn't ramble too much.

Cheers,
Robert.........

Edited by - TelesnapGuy on 19 Jan 2009 11:26:22
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TelesnapGuy
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Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  11:44:05  Show Profile Send TelesnapGuy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Russ

The BBC site (bar a few exceptions) has scans direct from the telsnap so they will be of better quality than your scans, the cleanup however leaves a lot to be desired.... Best example being when they cleaned the alpha sign off an Evil telesnap thinking it was a scratch!


Here's an exmaple of what I was talking about with the BBC scans. The one on the left is the BBC version, and the far right is Richard's scan of the same tele-snap. The middle is a composite using the best bits of both. If you look closely you can also see how much the BBC one is cropped.



Cheers,
Robert......
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Russ
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  12:42:07  Show Profile Send Russ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TelesnapGuy

quote:
Originally posted by Russ

The BBC site (bar a few exceptions) has scans direct from the telsnap so they will be of better quality than your scans, the cleanup however leaves a lot to be desired.... Best example being when they cleaned the alpha sign off an Evil telesnap thinking it was a scratch!


Here's an exmaple of what I was talking about with the BBC scans. The one on the left is the BBC version, and the far right is Richard's scan of the same tele-snap. The middle is a composite using the best bits of both. If you look closely you can also see how much the BBC one is cropped.



Cheers,
Robert......



Yes, but that is due to how badly BBCi have cleaned them up and inserted a false telesnap border over them rather than the actual scan being bad.

Nice to have you on here too Robert BTW

www.recons.com
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Russ
Head Administrator



United Kingdom
3588 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  13:12:25  Show Profile Send Russ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TelesnapGuy


quote:
quote:
Eventually I wanted to continue my efforts and since the JV had tackled most of the telesnapped serials at this point I decided to try my hand at Myth Makers. Dean and Derek, who were good mates, were chosen to be the official UK dub site for that recon when it was released by the JV team. They were quite intrigued to hear how I planned to pull that off with only 7 remaining publicity photos. To be honest, I hadn't a clue but I loved the story so I decided I would use mainly screen grabs from other period DR Who serials like the Romans for example and supplement it with screen shots from other Trojan movies.

And 'Up Pompeii', don't forget that. For those of you that don't know, Rick loves 'Up Pompeii'. *grin*


Must be an LC thing, it was used in the new Myth Makers too!

quote:
quote:
The only non telesnap stories released at that point by anyone were Michael Palmer's versions of Reign of Terror (mostly screen caps from existing episodes), Tenth Planet (badly dubbed movie as mentioned), Invasion (screen caps from existing episodes again) and Mission to the Unknown, which was probably the forerunner of most modern non telesnap recons at it consisted of clips from elsewhere and photoshopped (or whatever it was available at that time, PhotoDeluxe?) shots of Cory, Garvey and Lowery, plus the existing photos. None of which had the paucity of source material of SP or Myth with so few options and so much time to fill, also remember with the software available then, composite pictures were far less convincing and, therefore, much less used


You've forgotten to mention Bruce Robinson's COI version of 'Marco Polo' and Harold Achatz's versions of 'The Nightmare Begins'. Harry's first episode of 'Master Plan' is probably the hardest for people to watch, but it was a good effort to try something new. Not many people know this, but he produced two versions, but the one with the full script is not commonly circulated.


Indeed, the Marco recon was great for the time, the Achatz one still gives me nightmares, though, a lot of the ideas in it are now commonplace due to better technology


quote:
quote:
Originally posted by rbrindell

I remember Paul Cryer's Massacre. I was in steady contact with Paul in those days. I visited his site often. I thought only Patrick and I had copies of that recon:)


Wrong again! :) I’ve got a copy here, too.


I have it as well - but i have yet to manage to sit through it!!


quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Russ

MPP fell through AIUI because the people involved got fed up with doing the recons (and probably the harrasment of people moaning about missed deadlines etc - one of the reasons LC never announce release dates) but Michael Palmer released a couple more recons (Macra and Highlanders IIRC) under the JV banner before he sadly passed away


There was a certain irritation at the time by some people's expectations, but those were just a few minor but very vocal people that made it hard to feel the "fun" in doing the recons anymore. I don't even recall their names anymore. The JV 'Macra' and 'Highlanders were never fully distributed because by that time with the one court case and the few fans mentioned above some of us just felt like fading away and letting LC take over the reins.


Indeed, one of the reasons LC refuse to give any sort of release schedule, it's hard to stick to it


quote:
Hiya Richard! I wouldn't be so sure about the BBC scans being better. They are all cropped a bit and over-darkened to hide a lot of the blemishes. You spent a ton of time cleaning up those original scans and it showed. The BBC ones don't have as much noise and detail, but the ones scanned from the negatives do have better tones and bring out details sometimes hidden in the BBC online versions.


But remember those are scans of the 35mm photos DWM took of the telesnaps rather than the telesnaps themselves, the BBCi ones are actual scans of the telesnaps

quote:
quote:
I bought a load of missing episode audios long before i was connected to the internet from a guy at a memorabilia show, i always wondered if it was the same guy (Bennet), quality was horrible but better than nothing!


No, those would not have been Bennett's. His audios were all restored in some way (by someone else) and presented in jewel cases with covers, etc. That's part of the reason he attracted so much attention.


well these were casettes and it was probably before CD became quite so prevalent, they did have covers though

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rbrindell
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USA
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Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  14:27:18  Show Profile Send rbrindell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Robert,

Nice to hear from you. Your quote:

Hahaha. I do, of course! In fact, I have two versions of the Space In Time 'Macra', and I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who still has a copy of your first edit, Rick.

The very first early edition had a single still for 'A Space In Time Production' and then goes right into the opening Troughton titles. The opening titles, shown over the eyes have no new captions, and when the descriptive captions scroll across the screen you made the tele-snaps smaller so the captions were under them.

The edit that was distributed had a scrolling (bottom to top) caption for 'A Space In Time Production' and new titles (eg 'The Macra Terror') in black under the original titles on the tele-snaps. The descriptive captions still scrolled from right to left, but now over the tele-snaps, but not with the black background yet.

IIRC, you very quickly modified this to a LC recon with intro captions and all the regular LC bits you had decided on, so I'm not sure if many people ever did see the SiT version, and certainly not your very first edit.


That's great. I have long since lost my earlier versions of Macra (and probably a good thing too:)
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toxicspurge
Rassilons Bitch



USA
13439 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  14:29:38  Show Profile Send toxicspurge a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You guys need to hang onto whatever you still have for

THE DOCTOR WHO RECON MUSEUM

we'll be starting in a few years.

"There will always be 97 missing episodes of Doctor Who"
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dhandley
Administrator



United Kingdom
199 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  14:36:05  Show Profile Send dhandley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Russ
But remember those are scans of the 35mm photos DWM took of the telesnaps rather than the telesnaps themselves, the BBCi ones are actual scans of the telesnaps




Not quite true. DWM weren't allowed direct access to take the pictures of the telesnaps, they had to get a BBC photographer to take the pictures, they weren't on 35mm either but large approx 4x5" negatives.
We were lent these for LC use too, but I don't think many got used as we shortly after got the raw BBCi scans to work from. These high res scans really were much better than the DWM negs, they really aren't very well represented on the BBC web site. As an interesting comparison on these, if you look at Faceless Ones ep 2, some of these were missed out when they did the scanning and they used the cleaned up DWM copies on the web site instead.
Compare the DWM neg scan:

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with the BBCi scan: You must be logged in to see this link.

The telesnaps on the web site are also reduced in size and suffer from poor jpg compression. As for the clean up - just look at the blob left in over Nurse Pinto's head!

Derek
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Russ
Head Administrator



United Kingdom
3588 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  14:54:26  Show Profile Send Russ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dhandley

quote:
Originally posted by Russ
But remember those are scans of the 35mm photos DWM took of the telesnaps rather than the telesnaps themselves, the BBCi ones are actual scans of the telesnaps




Not quite true. DWM weren't allowed direct access to take the pictures of the telesnaps, they had to get a BBC photographer to take the pictures, they weren't on 35mm either but large approx 4x5" negatives.
We were lent these for LC use too, but I don't think many got used as we shortly after got the raw BBCi scans to work from. These high res scans really were much better than the DWM negs, they really aren't very well represented on the BBC web site. As an interesting comparison on these, if you look at Faceless Ones ep 2, some of these were missed out when they did the scanning and they used the cleaned up DWM copies on the web site instead.
Compare the DWM neg scan:

You must be logged in to see this link.

with the BBCi scan: You must be logged in to see this link.

The telesnaps on the web site are also reduced in size and suffer from poor jpg compression. As for the clean up - just look at the blob left in over Nurse Pinto's head!



Ah, well the point is similar, they aren't direct scans of the telsnaps.

I have no idea who BBCi got to do the clean up but it's awful, quite often just crushed down to hide the crap but when you up the gamma (or put them on a TV screen!) it stands out a mile, quite often they have had some sort of median filter applied across the whole telesnap rather than just correcting damaged areas

www.recons.com
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rbrindell
Newbie



USA
23 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  15:42:21  Show Profile Send rbrindell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahh it was sooo nice to hear from you Robert. I could also write a long reply so we can reminisce about other things or expound on what we have going already, but suffice it to say, it was a pleasure; indeed is a pleasure knowing, liking and respecting you.

I actually forgot that I bought a new VCR to start dubbing for you:) Also I remember walking about in a rain storm with you and Charlie in Central Park in NYC. Ahh, those were the days.

Just in case you don't know, I have now taken a back seat to the "new generation" because the tedious work does get old after a while. Needless to say, it was an honor being a part of this worthwhile project.

Now I play guitar to keep busy!

Rockin' Ricky
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TelesnapGuy
Newbie



6 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2009 :  16:25:30  Show Profile Send TelesnapGuy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Russ

Yes, but that is due to how badly BBCi have cleaned them up and inserted a false telesnap border over them rather than the actual scan being bad.

Nice to have you on here too Robert BTW


Oh sorry, didn't mean to imply that the BBCi scans were poor because of the equipment or anything (although James said they just used a simple desktop scanner), it was more the clean-up work, and like DWM before them, they unaturally darkened all the images to start with as this hid a majority of the blemishes. The tele-snap frame they used did also cut far more of each image than they needed too. In several cases the scans are over cropped because they just didn't straighten the scan out.

Don't take this as me trying to badmouth the BBCi folks either. James once told me that the often only had one afternoon to get some of the scans ready for the web site. It was more a cases of resources and I'm sure Derek can tell you all about how long it takes with some loving care to really get these scans cleaned up.

Cheers,
Robert...........
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